Your cyber insurance doesn't want to pay for your hack
This is a trend that's happening around the globe, and the news we got from Lloyd's of London Insurance in August is just the latest example. They're looking to exclude payments for "catastropic" and "state-sponsored" attacks. We talk about what that means. We also discuss how a plaintiff lost a recent lawsuit against their insurance company, getting $100K when what they wanted was $600K. It was how their policy was written. We also talk about a new show (streaming on Peacock in the US) called "The Undeclared War" that is technically fictional but seems all too real. We finish up with a discussion of how we see the roll of cyber insurance in this scary world of ransomware. Saddle up and listen up!
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Hi, and welcome to Backup Central's restored all podcast
W. Curtis Preston:I'm your host w Curtis Preston, aka mr.
W. Curtis Preston:Backup, and have with me my confusing mechanical situation, analyst,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Uh, Curtis.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yes.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:We've had quite a few conversations the last few days
Prasanna Malaiyandi:or week I should say.
W. Curtis Preston:We,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:you should give an update for our
Prasanna Malaiyandi:listeners on your current saga.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:You're like, it might be too.
W. Curtis Preston:For anybody that cares.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:So I have a Prius with just shy of 200,000 miles and it started showing
W. Curtis Preston:signs of maybe a head gasket, right?
W. Curtis Preston:But it's, But, but in a Prius, when the, the signs are really
W. Curtis Preston:minor, it's not, or at least in the beginning, the signs are really minor.
W. Curtis Preston:It throws an occasional, um, uh, misfire.
W. Curtis Preston:Right?
W. Curtis Preston:And so we, you know, we work on different things, different possib.
W. Curtis Preston:And, and, and I decided that I didn't wanna spend the money on a 200,000
W. Curtis Preston:mile car to do the head gasket.
W. Curtis Preston:And so I decided to try what was considered to be the best of the sealing
W. Curtis Preston:stuff, which happens to be steel seal.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, and everything worked out, but, well, it appeared that everything worked.
W. Curtis Preston:But now, after that, my cooling system, Is malfunctioning and it's
W. Curtis Preston:specifically malfunctioning saying that my water pump isn't working and I'm
W. Curtis Preston:getting an actual code that essentially says either the control module or
W. Curtis Preston:the wiring to the water pump or the water pump itself is not working.
W. Curtis Preston:And, uh, some of you that are anti seal stuff or like, Oh, a seal messed up the
W. Curtis Preston:thing, and I don't, I don't know that.
W. Curtis Preston:But anyway, it's just, that's, that's where I'm at.
W. Curtis Preston:So the car is fine if it's idling, it runs.
W. Curtis Preston:Not throwing the error, but the, But the water pump is saying
W. Curtis Preston:it's not running properly, right?
W. Curtis Preston:I, I think it's, I think it's running somewhat.
W. Curtis Preston:Otherwise the car would overheat sooner, but, um,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:and just looking at the code, uh, doing some research,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:it looks like if it's not running at like 900 rpm, then it throws that code
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:at least at 900 rpm.
W. Curtis Preston:the easy this is, this is another one when
W. Curtis Preston:you're a do it yourself mechanic, like I could take it to my guy.
W. Curtis Preston:I could take it to my guy, and $500 later we maybe know what's wrong,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yep.
W. Curtis Preston:So for $200 I can replace my water pump.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So what are you gonna do, Curtis?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Did you already order water pump?
W. Curtis Preston:I ordered the water pump.
W. Curtis Preston:It'll be here
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, and it's actually the original, it's a, it's
W. Curtis Preston:the, you know, it's the AON water pump.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:It's the same exact line.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:P T one?
W. Curtis Preston:What is that?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Is that the model number?
W. Curtis Preston:Oh no, it's, you know, it's, it is, it is the same
W. Curtis Preston:company that makes the Prius, um,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah, for Toyota.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It just doesn't have the Toyota stamp on it.
W. Curtis Preston:Well, it actually has the Toyota stamp on it, believe it or not.
W. Curtis Preston:It has the Toyota stamp on it, but they grind it off when they sell it on Amazon.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Wow.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:That is interesting cuz I've heard like when you buy like OE
Prasanna Malaiyandi:parts for other companies, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:You just are missing the stamp.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Like if you buy headlights for your BMW or whatever and you buy like the Bosh
Prasanna Malaiyandi:ones, which are the OE ones, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:You just are missing the uh, BMW badge.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Or stamp on the part.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:But it's interesting that they've actually built the part and then
Prasanna Malaiyandi:they spend the labor and the time
Prasanna Malaiyandi:to.
W. Curtis Preston:I think what it is is they have one line, The
W. Curtis Preston:line makes the, the Toyota stamped parts and it's actually die stamped.
W. Curtis Preston:Is what?
W. Curtis Preston:Is what it is.
W. Curtis Preston:And so then, then, and then somebody
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Could you imagine being that person being
Prasanna Malaiyandi:like, What a waste of a job?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I just sit there.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:And it's very clearly manually done.
W. Curtis Preston:It's very
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:you know, there's a guy with a grinder
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Well, someone's employed at least, so.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, I, that's what it is.
W. Curtis Preston:I'm all about giving people jobs.
W. Curtis Preston:So
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So hopefully next podcast we will have an update.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:yeah, I decided, by the way, I decided
W. Curtis Preston:to give my mechanic some money.
W. Curtis Preston:I sent him some money for some verbal advice he'd given me, and I was like,
W. Curtis Preston:Dude, thanks for, thanks for helping.
W. Curtis Preston:He's been my mechanic for a long time and, and then lately I've
W. Curtis Preston:been doing my own stuff, you know?
W. Curtis Preston:Anyway.
W. Curtis Preston:My constant, my constant companion through it all has been my Prasanna Malaiyandi.
W. Curtis Preston:So let's, uh, uh, I'll throw out our disclaimer.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, neither Prasanna and I or our mechanics or, uh, know what we're doing.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, we also, are doing this independently.
W. Curtis Preston:He works for Zoom.
W. Curtis Preston:I work for Druva.
W. Curtis Preston:This is not a podcast of either company and the opinions that you hear are ours.
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W. Curtis Preston:don't like us, in which case there's really no need to read In which case
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W. Curtis Preston:Do you just, I wonder, I wonder if there's people who just listen to like
W. Curtis Preston:the first five minutes, just wanna see
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Of us, of us rambling,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:and
W. Curtis Preston:and then they're like, Okay, he's gonna talk about backups.
W. Curtis Preston:Now I'm outta here.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, wonder if we have this odd, That would be a
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I wonder if you can find that stat though,
W. Curtis Preston:Lord.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, I, yeah, I don't think my, I don't think my host gives that, that
W. Curtis Preston:stat, but it would be really funny if there's a group of people that
W. Curtis Preston:listen for five minutes and they go, Okay, he's talking about tech now.
W. Curtis Preston:I'm outta here.
W. Curtis Preston:I just wanna know what's going on with Prius or is flooring or, Uh,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:like.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:I think we've been doing this long enough.
W. Curtis Preston:Did we record when I was doing solar, I was trying to do my own solar.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yep.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:We did record cuz I do remember, I think Yep.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Talking about that.
W. Curtis Preston:yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Good terms.
W. Curtis Preston:Anyway, uh, I
Prasanna Malaiyandi:speaking of rating this, speaking of rating, if
Prasanna Malaiyandi:we get to 25 ratings, then Curtis will for Christmas, grow a Santa beard.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So he's already started, which is awesome, but for Christmas,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:he will grow the Santa beard.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So please go on.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I think it's the Apple Podcast, right site.
W. Curtis Preston:This is specifically Apple Podcast.
W. Curtis Preston:We're trying to get to, uh, the number of ratings
Prasanna Malaiyandi:yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Trying to get to 25 because I really want to see Curtis with the Santa beard.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So please, please, please go give us a, like, give us a rating.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Leave a comment, and let's try to hit the 25 number.
W. Curtis Preston:On there, there's a comment on there about me doing the
W. Curtis Preston:Santa thing, that would be pretty funny.
W. Curtis Preston:like, I'm leaving this comment just so Curtis will do a Santa beard.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, All right, well there you go.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, and you know, if you wanna join the party, if you want to come and
W. Curtis Preston:talk to us about our topics, right?
W. Curtis Preston:Backup, security, uh, privacy, what else should we talk about?
W. Curtis Preston:Don't we talk about, Oh, you know, just, well, whatever.
W. Curtis Preston:All of those things,
W. Curtis Preston:So if you wanna join the podcast, if you wanna join the conversation,
W. Curtis Preston:reach out to me, uh, at WC Preston on Twitter, or w Curtis Preston at gmail.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, so I thought that, This week we would talk about a trend that's been happening.
W. Curtis Preston:I'm seeing it in a, in a couple of different places, and it's this idea
W. Curtis Preston:that, So, so, we'll, we'll back up.
W. Curtis Preston:There was a trend that cyber attacks were becoming more common, Right?
W. Curtis Preston:Especially ransomware attacks.
W. Curtis Preston:And then another trend was everybody said, Well, we better get cyber insurance.
W. Curtis Preston:We didn't have cyber insurance, but we didn't, you know, it's sort of
W. Curtis Preston:like, I don't have flood insurance cuz I live on top of a hill and,
W. Curtis Preston:you know, that sort of stuff, right?
W. Curtis Preston:Um, even then I, I, I've been watching the news lately and I'm like, I don't
W. Curtis Preston:know, you know, maybe I should get it.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Well, it's like the Spectra Logic, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Tony Mendoza, right.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:When we had a bond talking about when they got hit with ransomware, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:He's like, Yeah, just a month before the board had bought and
Prasanna Malaiyandi:gone and got cyber insurance.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Right?
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, that was, that was really good.
W. Curtis Preston:So it's one of those things where it's like, it's really helpful to
W. Curtis Preston:have somebody in your corner, even if they're not gonna like, pay you a
W. Curtis Preston:million dollars because you got hit.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, it's really helpful to have somebody in your corner, so it's certainly
W. Curtis Preston:something to think about if you're not, if you don't currently have cyber insurance.
W. Curtis Preston:I think it's a solid idea.
W. Curtis Preston:What I think was starting to happen, or the insurance companies
W. Curtis Preston:felt was starting to happen was that they felt that there were.
W. Curtis Preston:, um, certain types of attacks that they couldn't ensure against, or certain types
W. Curtis Preston:of payments they couldn't ensure against.
W. Curtis Preston:So one of the things I think we saw a little while ago was cyber
W. Curtis Preston:companies saying, Listen, we're not gonna pay the ransom, right?
W. Curtis Preston:We're, you know, or, or it's a severely limited amount that
W. Curtis Preston:they're gonna pay the ransom.
W. Curtis Preston:So, We'll help cover damages or whatever, but we're not gonna pay the ransom.
W. Curtis Preston:What I'm seeing now and um, there's two articles that we
W. Curtis Preston:can talk about the, Go ahead.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Was it that they're not gonna pay the ransom?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Or was there also concerns around paying the damages or the lawsuits or
Prasanna Malaiyandi:anything like, Because I think in case of when you get hit with ransomware,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:like there's sort of three buckets I look at in terms of cost, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:One is, Paying the ransom.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Uh, the second is getting your infrastructure back up and
Prasanna Malaiyandi:running, whatever that is.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:And then third is paying for any damages that happened because you got hit.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Like this might
Prasanna Malaiyandi:be having to deal Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Loss of business or dealing with lawsuits, Right.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Or other things like that.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So do you know where cyber insurance, when you talk about the cost, were those
Prasanna Malaiyandi:like, that they're reducing?
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
W. Curtis Preston:And that wasn't the one, that wasn't the thing I wanted to talk about this
W. Curtis Preston:week, but, so I didn't research it.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Okay.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:No, no,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:that's okay.
W. Curtis Preston:but, but I, I am aware that that insurance
W. Curtis Preston:companies had been pulling back on.
W. Curtis Preston:Coverage of ransomware.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, that, that, that, that they're not doing the same thing
W. Curtis Preston:that they were doing before.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, you know, and again, it's not across the board, it's not every company,
W. Curtis Preston:but, um, that's what we're seeing.
W. Curtis Preston:And there's two other, um, restrictions that I thought we'd cover.
W. Curtis Preston:And the first, and it was an article that came out, um, just in the last
W. Curtis Preston:week, and that was that, um, Lloyds of London is instructing its insurer
W. Curtis Preston:groups, uh, globally to exclude the quote is catastrophic state
W. Curtis Preston:backed hacks from standalone cyber insurance policy starting next year.
W. Curtis Preston:So
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Which is a lot to unpack.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:First is this article was dated August 24th because I'm not sure
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:when this, uh, episode will air.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Um, it's interesting.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Right.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:The two things that stood out to me was catastrophic,
W. Curtis Preston:Mm-hmm.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:And the definition of what catastrophic is.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I always worry when people use that word, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:In terms of what it covers.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:And then the second one, and maybe we could discuss this,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:is also nation state, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Because there are lots.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah, because there are lots of hacking groups that are hard to tell.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Are they sort of state backed or are they independent or what that relationship is.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So maybe we could talk about those two.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:And you know, we've talked about, obviously we've covered like ransomware
W. Curtis Preston:attacks and, and that there's groups like the CONTI ransomware group
W. Curtis Preston:that are huge and there's a lot of feeling that they are state backed.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, that they're, they're certainly state inc encouraged, um, the.
W. Curtis Preston:I, I think, you know, this is one of those, like, you know, I am not a lawyer
W. Curtis Preston:and I'm not even attempting to be a lawyer and I haven't actually seen the contract,
W. Curtis Preston:but I think what they're trying to protect against is like what happened with the
W. Curtis Preston:Solar Winds attack, but the solar winds attack, which, um, I believe we, I believe
W. Curtis Preston:that we believe that it was a state backed attack that, um, The reason, the
W. Curtis Preston:thing with state back to tax, you know, or state, State backed attacks, that's
Prasanna Malaiyandi:That's a mouth full
W. Curtis Preston:T.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Or nation state attack is that they have essentially an unlimited budget
W. Curtis Preston:and so they can do things that perhaps a smaller, smaller hacking group might
W. Curtis Preston:not have or might not be able to do.
W. Curtis Preston:And.
W. Curtis Preston:I think the Solar Winds attack is an example of that because it required
W. Curtis Preston:many, many months of, of, you
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Careful planning Yep.
W. Curtis Preston:and the.
W. Curtis Preston:The result, and this is where I'm getting to the result was catastrophic.
W. Curtis Preston:It took out, you know, it hacked many, many, many companies and I think the
W. Curtis Preston:worry is that there could be worse, even more catastrophic attacks that
W. Curtis Preston:make the Solarwinds attack look small.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:but instead of calling out nation states
Prasanna Malaiyandi:and cat catastrophic, it almost seems better to think about it
Prasanna Malaiyandi:in terms of like the impact.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Uh, another example could be like the CAA hack, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:That affected MSPs, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Like how do they quantify that SolarWinds totally makes sense, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Or someone going against like a Microsoft or the Okta hack that happened, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Because there are so many people who use Okta, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It's.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It's a little fuzzy
Prasanna Malaiyandi:right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:In terms of,
W. Curtis Preston:I,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah, I know we're interpreting.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, we are interpreting someone else's words.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, I happen to be looking at a Wall Street Journal article.
W. Curtis Preston:We're interpreting someone else's words.
W. Curtis Preston:We haven't seen the contract.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, the, uh, actually, um, let me click on this.
W. Curtis Preston:I haven't seen this before, so I actually have a bulletin.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, so this is, I actually have the bulletin from Lloyd's and
W. Curtis Preston:I'm looking at it right now.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So while you're pulling that up, one of the things,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So I'm reading a register article from the 24th of August, and one of
Prasanna Malaiyandi:the things is that the policies must set out a robust basis on which to
Prasanna Malaiyandi:attribute state sponsored attacks.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:And the register article, they actually say that attribution is absolutely hard.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Because like we've talked about, saying that a particular group
Prasanna Malaiyandi:is responsible for an attack or a nation state with a hundred percent
Prasanna Malaiyandi:confidence is really, really difficult.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Or the fact that like these ransomware groups right they're as a service now.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So what does it mean if say there's a nation state sponsoring a ransomware
Prasanna Malaiyandi:group that's offering it as a service and some other smaller groups starts
Prasanna Malaiyandi:using that exact same package?
W. Curtis Preston:So I'm reading the actual memo here.
W. Curtis Preston:Okay, so at a minimum, the state backed cyber attack exclusion must exclude
W. Curtis Preston:losses arising from a war, whether declared or not, where the policy does
W. Curtis Preston:not have a separate war exclusion, exclude losses arising from state
W. Curtis Preston:backed cyber attacks that significantly impair the ability of a state to
W. Curtis Preston:function or that significantly impair the security capabilities of a state.
W. Curtis Preston:So it's a, it's an attack on, on the state.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Gotcha.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So not necess.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So going back to our examples, Kaseya and Solar Winds.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:See, but that's where it gets a little fuzzy still, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Because.
W. Curtis Preston:they're say, they're saying if the United States can't
W. Curtis Preston:function, if you're part of, if you're part of a hack that took out the us.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:To what extent though, Right.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Could you claim that like an attack on I know.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I know.
W. Curtis Preston:Set out a robust basis by which the parties agree on
W. Curtis Preston:how any state by cyber attack will be attributed to one or more states.
W. Curtis Preston:Ensure all key terms are clearly defined
W. Curtis Preston:Okay?
W. Curtis Preston:So they're not saying what you gotta put in there.
W. Curtis Preston:They're just saying, Dude, you gotta, you gotta exclude the state backed stuff.
W. Curtis Preston:You have to be very clear as to how we're gonna attribute state backed stuff.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yep.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Which I think is gonna be a court challenge for sure.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I could just imagine, cuz this goes into effect in 2023, I believe, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:End of March, 2023.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So I'm.
W. Curtis Preston:saying a phased, A phased attach, but Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Okay.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So I'm guessing that there will probably be lots of court
Prasanna Malaiyandi:challenges in terms of this, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So we shall see how Lloyd's handle, I understand what
Prasanna Malaiyandi:they're trying to do, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Because some of these, like you said, are very costly, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It's outside the scope.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It's just like today, most insurance policies don't cover an act of war, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:And so
W. Curtis Preston:yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I can see why they're doing this.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, I think what they're saying is this is an act of war.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, you know, declared or not, and that we don't, we're not gonna cover it.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Speaking of declared and not declared war, do you wanna talk
Prasanna Malaiyandi:about the show that you've been watching?
W. Curtis Preston:yeah, I'll talk about this show.
W. Curtis Preston:So there's a show on Peacock, I think it's, it was a UK show that was popular
W. Curtis Preston:in the UK and now they brought it to the US and it's called The Undeclared War.
W. Curtis Preston:And it's, I, I thought it was a pretty good show.
W. Curtis Preston:The, there was nothing that really made me, you know, it's, it's a
W. Curtis Preston:show about cyber and, and, and other state backed attacks specifically
W. Curtis Preston:on Russia or by Russia on the uk.
W. Curtis Preston:And they, um, they, they got, I mean, there's, there's some tech stuff where
W. Curtis Preston:I was like, I'm not sure if that's, if that does what you're saying it does.
W. Curtis Preston:And, um, One thing I'm always interested is when you, when you see, it's, when
W. Curtis Preston:they're looking at the code, like, I don't know, is their ability to look
W. Curtis Preston:at the code, if there's code that has been compiled, is it possible
W. Curtis Preston:to disassemble that and look at it?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:It is.
W. Curtis Preston:Okay.
W. Curtis Preston:All
Prasanna Malaiyandi:well it, But it wouldn't end up being code, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:You would ba
W. Curtis Preston:It would,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:like you might end, Yeah, it'd be assembly.
W. Curtis Preston:Okay.
W. Curtis Preston:So that, that part again, that, that was where I, I wasn't sure that that
W. Curtis Preston:was possible what they were doing.
W. Curtis Preston:But then again, I think what I was looking at was Python , so maybe it
W. Curtis Preston:wasn't compiled code cuz it was actually a reference to Python in the, the thing and.
W. Curtis Preston:But then they also had her, Sorry, I'm focusing on the techy things that
W. Curtis Preston:maybe they got wrong, but, but overall, the, the overall concepts that they
W. Curtis Preston:got right where basically it was a, and again, if you don't want to hear,
W. Curtis Preston:uh, I'm gonna give some spoilers.
W. Curtis Preston:I don't care.
W. Curtis Preston:Like, if you don't wanna hear this stuff, then skip ahead in a few minutes.
W. Curtis Preston:Um,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:About five minutes.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, about five minutes.
W. Curtis Preston:Don't take me that well, man.
W. Curtis Preston:I don't know.
W. Curtis Preston:Anyway, I can talk.
W. Curtis Preston:I know how to talk.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, it was a state sponsored, like Russia said, and, and what's interesting about
W. Curtis Preston:this show is that they show both sides.
W. Curtis Preston:They show what's going on in Russia at the time, you know, and Russia basically
W. Curtis Preston:said, We want to provoke the UK to war and we're gonna do a multi-pronged attack.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, social engineering, you know, social media engineering, uh, a cyber
W. Curtis Preston:attack against their infrastructure and a news attack, essentially.
W. Curtis Preston:Fake news
Prasanna Malaiyandi:misinformation.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:campaign.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Misinformation campaign, right.
W. Curtis Preston:Via their own state sponsored news channel.
W. Curtis Preston:And, um, you know, it works right?
W. Curtis Preston:Ultimately, um, the UK.
W. Curtis Preston:Believes that they have no choice.
W. Curtis Preston:They believe that they have been, they have been, uh, that, that, that, that
W. Curtis Preston:what Russia has done has been an act of war, although it's all been cyber and,
W. Curtis Preston:you know, under the covers and everything.
W. Curtis Preston:So they respond with a cyber attack and Russia over, you know, uh, exaggerates
W. Curtis Preston:the effect of the cyber attack.
W. Curtis Preston:It's killing people.
W. Curtis Preston:It's killing people in hospitals, et cetera.
W. Curtis Preston:And then they actually attack the uk.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, it's a.
W. Curtis Preston:Too real,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:But I was gonna say, yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:in 2024.
W. Curtis Preston:There's references to current to people that are currently in politics.
W. Curtis Preston:The, the actual Prime Minister is a fictional prime Minister.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, they actually said that he ous it, uh, uh, Boris,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Hmm.
W. Curtis Preston:um, in, in a bitter contention,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Were they foretelling things?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:I think they were, cuz you know, I think it must
W. Curtis Preston:have been filmed before he resigned.
W. Curtis Preston:But,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:um, but overall, the stuff was all just, there was this one
W. Curtis Preston:scene that um, really, really, it hit home for me and it was where they were.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, there's this, there, there's this new journalist that has
W. Curtis Preston:moved from Russia to London.
W. Curtis Preston:To be on the Russian sponsored channel, you know, that's in London.
W. Curtis Preston:And she gets, sent her very first assignment.
W. Curtis Preston:She gets sent to a place, to a date and time and place, and she's
W. Curtis Preston:told to put on riot gear, and then a, and then a riot happens.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, right behind her the moment she gets there and
W. Curtis Preston:she's like, Did, did, did we?
W. Curtis Preston:Did we, um, Uh, arrange for the counter protestors to show up, and
W. Curtis Preston:her boss is like, uh, we arrange both sides and she shows how she had,
W. Curtis Preston:they have Facebook groups that they started and one is like pro Putin
W. Curtis Preston:and one is against Putin, and they
Prasanna Malaiyandi:but both controlled.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:And they're both controlled by them.
W. Curtis Preston:And then they announced a, we're gonna meet in protest at 10:00 AM at Lester
W. Curtis Preston:Square, whatever it was, you know?
W. Curtis Preston:And they just did it with both groups, not telling them the
W. Curtis Preston:other groups are gonna be there.
W. Curtis Preston:And so then they show up 10 o'clock with the camera.
W. Curtis Preston:Oh look, there's a riot in the middle of London over Russia.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, and that all seemed really like, just a little too real,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It hits.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Does, did it feel when you're watching this, that it's almost as if you're
Prasanna Malaiyandi:watching like live news happening in another part of the world?
W. Curtis Preston:yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:And, and, you know, and then there was this, this moment when the, the
W. Curtis Preston:lady's like, Well, well, this is fake news, like what we just did.
W. Curtis Preston:She's like, Okay, First off, it happened, right?
W. Curtis Preston:We didn't orchestra, you know, we didn't, we didn't.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Hire the people to
Prasanna Malaiyandi:come.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:these are real people that join our groups.
W. Curtis Preston:They, there's a group that thinks Putin's great, and there's a
W. Curtis Preston:group that thinks he's bad.
W. Curtis Preston:These are all real people.
W. Curtis Preston:This is not fake news.
W. Curtis Preston:This actually happened.
W. Curtis Preston:And then she goes, Lady, it's all fake news.
W. Curtis Preston:Our goal is to get it so that everyone thinks everything's a lie.
W. Curtis Preston:And then, uh, then the biggest liar wins.
W. Curtis Preston:And again, I was like, this is just hitting a little too, too close to home.
W. Curtis Preston:But yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:But, but the cyber stuff was, was a core element.
W. Curtis Preston:And what they had was this multi-pronged cyber attack where they had the,
W. Curtis Preston:the one cyber attack that went off and then, The, again, they used
W. Curtis Preston:social engineering against it.
W. Curtis Preston:There was something about a, a, a library that they did something with
W. Curtis Preston:a library and they're like, Well, nobody's gonna look inside the library.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, and so the, you know, the new girl, of course, looks inside the library and she
Prasanna Malaiyandi:She's like, Ooh.
W. Curtis Preston:attack.
W. Curtis Preston:And so she's a hero except it turns out there's a third attack and the
W. Curtis Preston:third attack was the worst, right?
W. Curtis Preston:So they, they get this feeling of euphoria, of like, Oh,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:We caught it.
W. Curtis Preston:Haha, yay.
W. Curtis Preston:We caught it.
W. Curtis Preston:There was a third attack that was much, much worse.
W. Curtis Preston:And, um, that results in a severing of relationships between the US and the uk.
W. Curtis Preston:And the show,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Hmm.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Interesting.
W. Curtis Preston:a 75 year information sharing agreement is over.
W. Curtis Preston:It's like you are on your own.
W. Curtis Preston:So now the UK is on their own at a moment when
Prasanna Malaiyandi:When they need, Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Oh, yeah,
W. Curtis Preston:It was pretty, it was pretty good.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, overall the tech was pretty good.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, there was a moment where like, you know, they, they wanted to give the
W. Curtis Preston:girls some busy work and, and they said, I don't know, why don't you just strings it?
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, like strings the executable.
W. Curtis Preston:And so she's looking through the stuff that she sees.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, . And, um, oh, there, there was one little interesting thing that I picked up.
W. Curtis Preston:So there was this, in that strings attack, she gets these three words.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Oh yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I remember.
W. Curtis Preston:yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:And then it turns out there is this thing called what?
W. Curtis Preston:Three words.
W. Curtis Preston:What number?
W. Curtis Preston:Three words.com.
W. Curtis Preston:They've divided the entire world into, uh, three meter segments, three
W. Curtis Preston:meter squared segments, and you can identify any three meter squared
W. Curtis Preston:segment in the world by three words.
W. Curtis Preston:and, and it's a fascinating way to do like GPS coordinates and it's a
W. Curtis Preston:way to basically say like, I'm in a very, I'm in a big field and you can
W. Curtis Preston:meet me at, you know, dog cat goofy.
W. Curtis Preston:Right?
W. Curtis Preston:And, and that would, that would.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Translate.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:2
W. Curtis Preston:what, Three words?
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, that was, I'd never heard of it.
W. Curtis Preston:I was like, I'd done, you know, and I pull it up, I go, Look at that.
W. Curtis Preston:They use an actual app and they use the actual app, like the UI
W. Curtis Preston:of the actual app in the movie.
W. Curtis Preston:I was like, Well, that's pretty cool cuz a lot of times you
W. Curtis Preston:see, they don't, they, they.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:They just build their own.
W. Curtis Preston:right?
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, but overall it was, uh, so back to the topic,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:I thought it was really, really real.
W. Curtis Preston:The idea of state sponsored, you know, attacks is really, really real.
W. Curtis Preston:It's happening.
W. Curtis Preston:And so I can understand Lloyd's wanting to exclude that stuff.
W. Curtis Preston:I do believe it's an undeclared war.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, and then, uh, let's move on to the second topic, which is perhaps more.
W. Curtis Preston:Relevant to maybe the average company, I don't know.
W. Curtis Preston:And that is that there is a, another insurance company, it happens to be
W. Curtis Preston:travelers, and they, they were, uh, suing, um, uh, their, so, so that
W. Curtis Preston:Travelers is the insurance company.
W. Curtis Preston:The other company is called SJ Computers.
W. Curtis Preston:They sued in November that travelers owed them far more money than they
W. Curtis Preston:were, than they, than they were getting, They were getting a hundred thousand
W. Curtis Preston:dollars and that they owed nearly $600,000 in a loss due to a successful,
W. Curtis Preston:um, business email Compromise Attack.
W. Curtis Preston:And by the way, the attack just sounds horrible.
W. Curtis Preston:I don't know if you read through the
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah, I did.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It's, this was on the register as well, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Um, social engineering.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Can't find it.
W. Curtis Preston:well, they basically get, they, they, they hack an, they
W. Curtis Preston:get something to hack an account.
W. Curtis Preston:They send an email to the CEO to authorize a payment, and
W. Curtis Preston:the CEO makes a quick call to.
W. Curtis Preston:Their, their company, like they used a real, they they knew a lot.
W. Curtis Preston:They used the name of a real client of the company, or I
W. Curtis Preston:guess that would be a vendor.
W. Curtis Preston:They used the name of a real vendor of the company, but they just changed
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Change the phone number.
W. Curtis Preston:then they, they got them to authorize the, the thing, and
W. Curtis Preston:he, he didn't, he, he made a phone call.
W. Curtis Preston:It didn't answer.
W. Curtis Preston:And so they paid like $600,000 to, uh, this other company.
W. Curtis Preston:and what Travelers was saying is, Listen, we have social engineering coverage.
W. Curtis Preston:You paid for social engineering coverage.
W. Curtis Preston:This is social engineering.
W. Curtis Preston:It has a limit of a hundred thousand dollars.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, we're not paying you $600,000.
W. Curtis Preston:They sued, they lost.
W. Curtis Preston:The court very clearly said, Look, this was so, so they, they
W. Curtis Preston:differentiated between a social engineering attack and a cyber attack.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Which is interesting because I had never really considered
Prasanna Malaiyandi:that there are different categories, which makes sense now that you think about it,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:but that there are different categories of the types of crime and given insurance
Prasanna Malaiyandi:companies, they probably have different amounts of coverage, just like your normal
Prasanna Malaiyandi:house insurance or car insurance, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:You have different amounts based on the different types and.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:It makes sense.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:And I'm guessing that someone probably did not read their contracts clearly
Prasanna Malaiyandi:to see what their coverage was.
W. Curtis Preston:the story that I read, It looked like they did read the contract.
W. Curtis Preston:They, they, and they filed it the way they filed because they did read
W. Curtis Preston:their contract , meaning, meaning they wanted it to be covered on the other.
W. Curtis Preston:And I, I know I, I, um, there was an insurance deal that I was involved with.
W. Curtis Preston:I gotta speak, uh, what's the word?
W. Curtis Preston:High level here.
W. Curtis Preston:But there was an insurance deal that I was involved with where the insurance
W. Curtis Preston:company, Wanted to pay far less that it, it was a company that, that suffered,
W. Curtis Preston:um, a disaster recovery situation due to a flood of, uh, the River.
W. Curtis Preston:The company actually did a really good job where they had essentially
W. Curtis Preston:relocated their IT infrastructure to an alternate, like a, you
W. Curtis Preston:know, a, what do we call those?
W. Curtis Preston:Like a cola.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Colo.
W. Curtis Preston:And they had done it in such a way that there was like almost
W. Curtis Preston:no downtime, but by doing it that way.
W. Curtis Preston:And they basically, they knew this flood was coming and they.
W. Curtis Preston:In advance, and it was essentially miraculous.
W. Curtis Preston:The company had done a really great job of protecting their business,
W. Curtis Preston:but the coverage that they had, basically it said, We will cover
W. Curtis Preston:moving your computers, right?
W. Curtis Preston:Like moving them to a high ground and then moving them back.
W. Curtis Preston:There is no coverage for business continuation.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:And so they were, they were suing for, it was just like this, where they
W. Curtis Preston:were suing for a much bigger amount.
W. Curtis Preston:And they're saying, You don't, it's not covered in this,
W. Curtis Preston:in this, um, in this thing.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, So when, when insurance companies write insurance, they,
W. Curtis Preston:they, you know, they, they write it so they don't have to pay.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Or they understand the risks and the
Prasanna Malaiyandi:likelihood and all the rest of that and charge you accordingly, right?
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:And, uh, and, and you know, just like in this story, the company in my
W. Curtis Preston:story, they lost because it was very clear what the difference between
W. Curtis Preston:physically moving the computers and moving them the way they did.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, you know, and, and it was literally like this was, this
W. Curtis Preston:made this look like peanuts.
W. Curtis Preston:It was like, it was millions of dollars.
W. Curtis Preston:Uh, and they, they were gonna get, Like 200,000 or something.
W. Curtis Preston:It was something really small.
W. Curtis Preston:But, um, I, I think that the key here, if we go back to sort of the,
W. Curtis Preston:the core element of our podcast is that you should be creating a cyber
W. Curtis Preston:defense and a data defense mechanism that you shouldn't have to be reaching
W. Curtis Preston:out to your insurance company.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:If you, if you follow and, and I'm gonna go, I still think that the, the episode
W. Curtis Preston:that, the episodes that we did with, um,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Snorkel 42,
W. Curtis Preston:I still think that his multipronged, these are the things
W. Curtis Preston:that you should be doing already.
W. Curtis Preston:You know, that approach of, you know, Obviously, obviously monitoring for
W. Curtis Preston:bad stuff happening, obviously having, you know, an intrusion detection
W. Curtis Preston:system and all of that stuff, but then designing your infrastructure
W. Curtis Preston:in such a way that if and when you get an attack, it, it can't spread
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Blast radius is reduced.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, it reduces the blast radius and then you need to,
W. Curtis Preston:uh, because if you, if a single system got infected and then it's unable to
W. Curtis Preston:infect the rest of the data center, that's not that big of a recovery.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:Even if it's the most critical system in your enterprise, that's
W. Curtis Preston:still not that big of a recovery
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Assuming you have backups,
W. Curtis Preston:as well, Yes.
W. Curtis Preston:Well, any recovery is a bigger recovery if you don't have backups and assuming
W. Curtis Preston:you have, And then when we get to the part of the, the disaster, assuming
W. Curtis Preston:that you have a disaster recovery system that is a modern day system that
W. Curtis Preston:is able to bring your infrastructure.
W. Curtis Preston:In a relatively short period of time.
W. Curtis Preston:Um,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:That you've
Prasanna Malaiyandi:tested.
W. Curtis Preston:What's that?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:That you've
W. Curtis Preston:And it's tested.
W. Curtis Preston:That is, that is documented and you have tested, and I think
W. Curtis Preston:it should be automated, right?
W. Curtis Preston:There are, there are companies and yes, Druva is one of those
W. Curtis Preston:companies that provides a fully automated disaster recovery system.
W. Curtis Preston:We happen to use the cloud that you do, you know, you do a one-time setup upfront.
W. Curtis Preston:Then in the case of either testing or declaring a disaster, you literally push
W. Curtis Preston:one button and then boom, you fail over to the, to the other data center, right?
W. Curtis Preston:Well, it fail over to the cloud.
W. Curtis Preston:um, you know, we're not the only company.
W. Curtis Preston:In fact, we don't even have the best RTO there.
W. Curtis Preston:There are companies that, you know, we, I mean, ours is 15 to 20 minutes.
W. Curtis Preston:That's pretty dang good.
W. Curtis Preston:But there are companies that do that in, in, you know, one
W. Curtis Preston:minute or less than one minute.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, and I, I think that.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, if that's what you need, then you should go to those companies, right?
W. Curtis Preston:But if 15 to 20 minutes it's good enough for you to say no to a
W. Curtis Preston:ransomware company, then I would recommend you check out Druva.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, I, I think it's the beauty of us running in the cloud, being a full
W. Curtis Preston:SaaS service and all of that stuff.
W. Curtis Preston:Right?
W. Curtis Preston:So I just, I want you, That's, I think the takeaway to get from this
W. Curtis Preston:is to not, is to not focus on the.
W. Curtis Preston:Two thirds of the podcast of like the details of what these wordings mean
W. Curtis Preston:and ah, you know, are we gonna be covered and we're not gonna be covered?
W. Curtis Preston:Do it so you don't need to coverage.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Well, I would say do it.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So it's kind of like, as I look at it, like medical insurance sometimes, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Where you're looking at it to protect you from catastrophic, Like
Prasanna Malaiyandi:something gets out for some reason and your blast radius is no longer
Prasanna Malaiyandi:just that one server, but everything.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:So it's there just in case you need it, right, to provide you that
Prasanna Malaiyandi:coverage or whatever else it is.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:But for the most part, you should try to not ever have to use it.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:it's more like home insurance than medical insurance.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Actually,
W. Curtis Preston:say again,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I would say it's more like home insurance
Prasanna Malaiyandi:than medical insurance.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:It's more like, yeah, it's more like home insurance.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Protect yourself, right?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Plan.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Speaker:Protect yourself.
W. Curtis Preston:yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:That, that's the thing is, is to, is to plan for this.
W. Curtis Preston:I think that the main point of cyber insurance would be to
W. Curtis Preston:have a person in your corner.
W. Curtis Preston:When, uh, Tony from Special Logic talked about what they went through, they had
W. Curtis Preston:a company, a cyber specialist in their corner to help them out of the scenario.
W. Curtis Preston:That's, um, that's what I like about cyber insurance is to have, if there's a
W. Curtis Preston:clause in there that gives you access to
Prasanna Malaiyandi:An expert.
W. Curtis Preston:that have done this.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah, an expert.
W. Curtis Preston:Um, And, um, and then you do need that multi-pronged defense system to protect
W. Curtis Preston:from on the front end and to protect it from being able to, you know, to limit
W. Curtis Preston:the blast radius and protect it from being able, you know, like the idea of not
W. Curtis Preston:using recently used domains and not using domains with these really long names.
W. Curtis Preston:And, um, by the way, in the
Prasanna Malaiyandi:E dns.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:I like that one from, Did you remember the guy?
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:I like that at a lot the, in the movie, the, the command and control
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Uhhuh.
W. Curtis Preston:uh, it was a very simple, like, like the, like we're
W. Curtis Preston:in, That's all I wanted to say.
W. Curtis Preston:That's all I wanted to say.
W. Curtis Preston:And the way they did it was a, like on a Facebook page,
W. Curtis Preston:which is interesting, Right?
W. Curtis Preston:And then they, and then some, and then somebody else is watching
W. Curtis Preston:the likes on that Facebook page.
W. Curtis Preston:So,
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Well, if you think about it, right, most people are browsing
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Facebook and these common things, and now you have a domain that's commonly used.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:How do you differentiate that traffic?
W. Curtis Preston:And yet nobody should be going to Facebook from a server.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yep.
W. Curtis Preston:Right.
W. Curtis Preston:So that, yeah, that, that's the kind of stuff that, um, that,
W. Curtis Preston:uh, Snorkel 42 talked about.
W. Curtis Preston:All right.
W. Curtis Preston:Well, thank you very much, uh, Prasanna for, you know, what, what did we do
W. Curtis Preston:deciphering the latest news in cyber
W. Curtis Preston:insurance
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah, I think that seems accurate.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Thanks Curtis, and good luck with the car.
Prasanna Malaiyandi:We will have an update next week on the
W. Curtis Preston:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:Well, one way or the other, we will have an
Prasanna Malaiyandi:Yeah.
W. Curtis Preston:next week.
W. Curtis Preston:All right.
W. Curtis Preston:Thanks to our listeners, and remember to subscribe so that you can restore it all.
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